Back in June, I moderated a panel at Alight, Align, Arise, the inaugural conference on reparations hosted by Decolonizing Wealth. The panel focused on the narrative history of reparations, a history that began well before the end of the Civil War as keynote speaker and author Ta-Nehisi Coates discussed during his opening night fireside chat with Decolonizing Wealth’s founder Edgar Villanueva. It is paramount to understand that the advocacy to win reparations for Black people developed side by side with the development, establishment, and expansion of slavery in the United States.

With the end of the Civil War and the abolition of slavery by the thirteenth amendment a codified plan for the payment of reparations developed in direct response to the legal and lethal harm of the institution of slavery with General William T. Sherman’s Field Order 15. While it was revoked by President Andrew Johnson who took office after the assassination of President Abraham Lincoln, the fight for reparations continued in earnest then as it does now. 

Generations of advocates, allies, and activists have fought for reparations for Black people, but the dominant narrative around the necessity for reparations has not evolved. It is often discussed as repair and restitution for slavery and not in terms of repair and restitution for present day harms to Black people and Black communities such as police brutality and killings or redlining. Decolonizing wealth is actively working to disentangle the legacy of slavery from the narrative advocacy being utilized to win reparations. I spoke with lead data advisor Janay Cody, Ph.D, and Business Development Branding Manager Faith Campbell about why DWP has planted itself so deeply in reparations work, what winning reparations look like, and why for Black people money can be the medicine to help us heal. 

 

This conversation has been edited and condensed for clarity. 

 

Narrative Initiative 

Why is reparations the issue that DWP wanted to go after?

 

Dr. Janay Cody

So, when I joined DWP onboard, the leadership was very clear that they had been doing this work for some time and sort of changing the language in philanthropy writ large around reparations. Edgar [Villanueva, Founder of Decolonizing Wealth] was very much in tune with trying to have this conversation because he’s been a supporter and somebody who has looked at himself as a co-conspirator because of his relationships with Native work and getting their land back and other initiatives. 

 

He just ran constantly into these issues where, as soon as you talked about African Americans and reparations for them, there was this resistance. And he found a way to talk about it where he looked at money as medicine and as a form of healing. So in that way, it gave individuals who don’t have our experience [as African Americans], a way to find agency and show up. And he wanted to figure out a way to bring this mainstream . . . and have a bigger impact. 

 

And so when we joined together to collaborate, it was all about how to expand their reach, how to change the narrative, because he was running into this constant problem of when you talk about Black people, there’s resistance. There’s doubt. Questions come up that he hadn’t experienced when working on Indigenous issues.

 

Narrative Initiative 

I don’t know if you can answer this question, but why do you think that is? That there’s more resistance to talking about reparations and repair and healing with Black people than there is with Indigenous communities?

 

Dr. Janay Cody

There’s a few reasons I can speak to based on research that I’ve done. One of the biggest things is there’s this unsaid, overarching elephant in the room . . . about what Black people deserve. There’s this underlying resentment that is a part of the conversation but doesn’t get touched in the mainstream as much. And it’s something that we know doing this work intimately in our experience. We experience this with our allies in addition to people who are, opposed to us and who oppose this kind of change. And so looking at questions about “deservingness,” looking at the way in which reparations has been framed historically, as indelibly tied to slavery-which presents its own challenges-and looking at the ways in which, unless you had a Black experience, you really don’t understand how unique that struggle, that plight actually has been. I don’t think people fully appreciate it. I think those are some of the big reasons why, when you talk about reparations for Black people, there’s this resistance and hesitation that other [groups] might not encounter.

 

Faith Campbell

I was just on the phone with a funder and they’re fully immersed in the philanthropy space. She is a Black woman and a program director. She was just talking about how much resistance and how difficult it is to continue reparations work, not only for the United States of America, but globally. And we can see that, obviously, reparations is a global issue. But to see the atrocities in the United States that have been committed and still have to bite the bullet within the conversation and within work to see the needle move at all is a testament of how much people don’t think we deserve [reparations].

 

Narrative Initiative 

I want to go back to something you said, Dr. Cody, about money as medicine. That’s a narrative. Do you think that is a successful narrative framework, or are you still butting up against the resistance of deservingness?

 

Dr. Janay Cody

I think when we talk about successful narratives, the first step is to identify what we mean by success. I think that ‘money is medicine,’ for certain individuals, allows them to see how they can be agents, how they themselves have a role to play and what they can do without the shame or the guilt attached. That generally comes from people wanting to get into this work. I think it completely reframes how people can show up and create new stories for themselves and for their families and address some of their own unresolved issues they have with their positions of privilege. 

 

But I think, if we’re thinking more successfully about the narrative that actually wins reparations, I think we have some more work to do. Because that is a two-sided coin, where on one hand, we have this work of talking to people who do not have these experiences, have not had to live through the consequences of conditions we didn’t create. That takes a separate narrative and a separate bit of work to do. And you have to also balance that with how we construct narratives that allow our people to be unified, to be in alignment, and to be in agreement about what we want and what we want to accomplish. And I think threading the needle on both of those things . . . we need to think about what we want the narrative to accomplish before we say something is a success or not.

 

Narrative Initiative 

When you say, “talking to people who do not experience,” you mean people who do not experience racism or who do not come up against the limits and the insidiousness white supremacy tries to place on Black people specifically, yes? 

 

Dr. Janay Cody 

Yes, and I want to be even more specific. Black Americans who are natives [to the United States]—because there are all kinds of Black people in this world—are unlike any other racial group. We did not voluntarily come here. We worked for free to build this country and were never given the restitution in full that we were promised, and unlike every other group, we were actively and legally blocked from assimilating into this society. We were blocked from the benefits of the society we built, while other groups were, in many instances, forced to assimilate, but allowed that opportunity. So I feel like that unique experience, which as we all know is more than just slavery, puts us in a very different position where we have an understanding about conditions we didn’t create and barriers that were put in place that just have not existed for other groups.

 

Narrative Initiative 

Okay, so I want to push back a touch only because, as our history has shown, in 1865, six million Black people are released, basically into the wild. They owned nothing, they had nothing, not the clothes on their back, not the food that they had farmed and cultivated and yet over time, at least a decade, if not more, and then time again to present day, we have seen how Black people have been able to amass influence and wealth before it is legally, systematically, hatefully, and violently removed, torn down, looted, burned and then redress is never paid. I’m thinking of Tulsa specifically, but that is one instance of many. 

 

So there is also the narrative about “pulling yourself up by your bootstraps” and not having any boots, which goes back to deservingness. I wonder is it resistance, because there have been times when Black people have been able to overcome all of the adversity to demonstrate our capacity for building a life in spite of that. Do people feel that we don’t deserve a “handout” because you can do it yourself?

 

Dr. Janay Cody

So I don’t think we’re actually at odds here. I think that that might be a part of it. People love to reference historical examples of great triumph for Black people as examples of current day Black people being lazy. But I think that it’s the exception that proves the rule, right? When we have done those things we have lethally and legally been blocked from continuing to allow it to blossom and nurture and grow. It has been destroyed. So the point still remains that, even when we do those things, we get decimated in the process historically, and that has been unlike other groups. 

 

But, to talk more about your point about deservingness: I think that because of the way in which narratives have traditionally run about reparations, the concept of ‘deserving’ is a very hard thing to demonstrate in many instances. If we’re going to talk about historical redress, because it has been so long and we have more opportunity now than we’ve ever had before, it’s very hard to say how the plight of an individual, everyday Black person is the result of external conditions over which they have no control. So, because it has taken so long to get here, demonstrating the historical case, when you have all of these opportunities and all of these examples and all of these amazing things that we are doing as a people to contribute to the society, it becomes that much harder to say you are owed a restitution for a harm that was committed against your ancestors who are no longer alive and even the direct descendants of those ancestors are not. 

 

Faith Campbell

Going back to your comment about money being medicine, Dr. Cody and I have had a conversation about removing the idea of capitalism from the reparations narrative. I think it’s so interesting that that only comes up when it comes to the restitution due to Black people, right? When it comes to anything else, capitalism is championed. It’s part of the infrastructure of this country that we in fact built out and so why is it not going to be a part of the conversation about how we move forward with repair for Black and Brown people? 

 

It’s not the ultimate [aspect of it], right? It’s not the only aspect of repair for us, but it is definitely a huge factor. And it is not of anyone’s concern how those resources are spent, how they’re used, how they’re invested. However, it’s just part of the process and part of the journey that we’re on and what we’re due because we, in fact, built this country, so why would the money not help us to heal?

 

Narrative Initiative 

What is the goal? And what do you want the successful narrative around reparations to accomplish? I want to know the end goal before we talk about what that narrative is.

 

Faith Campbell

I want the narrative to facilitate winning reparations for Black people.

 

Narrative Initiative 

And what does that look like Dr. Cody?

 

Dr. Janay Cody

So for me that looks like a narrative where talking about reparations is like talking about climate change [or] recycling. There’s not this alarm, not this big to do. It’s seen as something that is natural, as the logical step in healing. It is seen as something that is necessary and not something that is giving away something to ‘undeserving’ people and giving them something for nothing. That for me would communicate that a new reparations narrative is being successful because it is moving us to actually getting reparations for Black people. 

 

I do think at times, and I say this as a narrative change researcher and expert, we get really hung up on the power of narrative and what it can do and [do] not recognize, at the end of the day, this is a tool to facilitate advocacy, but it is not advocacy itself. So, as a tool, I would like to see this used to achieve the goal of getting reparations.

 

Narrative Initiative 

So then, if the narrative is the tool to advocate to achieve the goal, and you want the tool to be as commonly understood and accepted as climate change, but climate change has had to do a lot of rebranding . . . that’s taken decades and decades of work. And yet, there have been many narratives around reparations—for centuries at this point—and yet, none of them seem to be the one that makes it as easy to accept as the climate change narratives have been in a generation. 

 

So, with your research that you have done and the different testing of messages and narratives that you have tried among different groups of people, what do you think is the most promising way to talk about reparations that will be a tool to inspire more advocacy and action that leads to the winning of reparations?

 

Dr. Janay Cody

I think that first and foremost, talking about the totality of inhumane treatment that this particular affected group has experienced and being able to quantify that and explain how that shows up present day is key. And I think we also need to be prepared to be surprised about who we need to move and what works for the people who have the most room to grow and to learn. 

 

We have, in our movement spaces with our allies and amongst ourselves, become very comfortable with this language. We have educated ourselves. We share. We talk. We deeply understand and care about these issues. But for individuals who are less steeped in this work the reparations narrative is still the same. It’s asking [for reparations] for slavery. There has been no evolution for the average person who is not in this work. So, bringing out those narratives about how you disentangle the conflation of slavery with reparations and talking about all of the things that are happening right now that are problematic because many people still remain unaware. Many individuals who are unaffected by this have no idea and are genuinely made curious, or at least very curious to learn more about all of the ways this shows up right now in recent history. . . . I think those things really help particular groups of individuals who we typically treat as opposition, and quite frankly, they have the most room to grow and learn and understand. 

 

For individuals who are with us, I think the ability of narrative to allow people to see a future that is bright that they can believe in and understand their role in and how they get to that future is very key. So, to the extent that we are one in agreement and alignment within our own communities about the future we want and what we want to see and how we get there and we can communicate that vision and give allies agency in helping us create that. I think those are areas where there may be some really good opportunities to move us forward here and I also think there are opportunities to learn from groups that have been successful in achieving reparations.

 

To get back to what Faith was saying about capitalism, you know, touching capitalism is neither necessary nor sufficient to achieve reparations because other groups have gotten reparations and haven’t touched it. We need to stay focused, and we need not be sidetracked by conversations that are not going to actually get us closer to that goal.

 

Narrative Initiative 

And because I like examples, can you give me an example of a group that’s won reparations and also a present example of how the legal and lethal blocking of certain services and access still shows up today?

 

Dr. Janay Cody

Yeah, I’m thinking of Japanese Americans with their internment. Reparation was given by Ronald Reagan. And, in terms of examples of current day, I’m thinking about redlining and thinking of the creation of the highways and how they destroyed communities through eminent domain. And that shows up today, right now, and those are instances we could absolutely heal for.

 

Narrative Initiative 

So let’s say the narrative has worked and reparations have been won. What do those reparations look like? Is it a check? Is it a housing program? Is it a refund? What does it look like? Who does it go to? Give me the things?

 

Faith Campbell

It is full on freedom. When I’m imagining, and I’ve been in a lot of spaces over the past five to seven years where we’re just challenged with imagining, what does it look like for Black people to live in a free society? What does it look like to really change the way our criminal justice system operates and works. All of these things, leading up to reparations, it really looks like how can we look at and imagine a society; a full on matrix where the Black person wakes up every day and they’re free to do what they want to do, to live how they want to live, opportunities are readily available for not only for them, but for their children and for their children’s children. 

 

[Winning reparations] just looks like Black folks being able to experience the highest value of life and not having any setbacks, where you’re dealing with redlining, you’re dealing with education inequality, you’re dealing with gentrification, you’re dealing [with] . . . police brutality. The Black man feeling like he can’t walk out of the house, drive down the street, for fear of being pulled over for no reason at all. [Winning reparations] just means peace and freedom for the Black mind, for the Black heart.

 

Narrative Initiative 

So then, reparation looks like liberation where Black people have equity and not just equality, yes?

 

Dr. Janay Cody 

There’s a difference between reparations and impact. I would love for the impact of reparations to be that beautiful vision that Faith laid out, but that’s separate from actually delivering restitution and repairing for the harm that you caused. And so that very specific thing about what does that repair and restitution look like? I think [that] is definitely something that, as a collective, we still need to figure out. What’s best for the everyday Black person? But I don’t think that we need to wait for that to still develop our narratives for getting people to align on the fact that it needs to happen and that it’s not hard to do. There just needs to be the will to do so.

 

Narrative Initiative 

Let’s say reparations is a check for $100,000. Talk about the impact of the restitution and the need to make sure that it goes to building the Black community.

 

Dr. Janay Cody

Yeah, so if we were to give every individual a $100,000 checks, the first thing I would want is that that check [be] non-taxable by a state or federal or local government entity. That’s your money. The second thing is that any investments you choose to make with that money, whether it’s a house, whether it’s a business, whether it’s a financial investment there are no taxes on the interest or the capital gains. There’s no tax on that money that is accrued as a result of that investment. You would be given the option to put that into an investment and bequeath that to your descendants. And anything that acquired in interest in dividends, anything that you received an increase in equity if there was a home that you received as a result of that investment that you bequeath to your descendants could also not be taxed. I would like to see this benefit remain in perpetuity non-taxable and that you are given the ability to invest in it and see it grow and multiply without [having it] subject to government intervention. 

 

That’s my view, because it’s not just about getting the benefit. It’s about sustaining it. And you know, death and taxes are inevitable in this world. But I would like for reparations not to be taxed on Black lives because we’ve been taxed enough.

 

The passing down of wealth is a huge way people [have been] able to build off of the successes of previous generations and to secure their positional equity. Black people are playing catch up because we haven’t been able to successfully transfer our wealth, transfer the things that we’ve owned. We owned more land in 1920 than we do now and that is a result of external factors of government, of a variety of things, but ultimately, not necessarily understanding and being equipped with the mechanisms to protect our wealth are just as important as acquiring it. 

 

Narrative Initiative  

Is there anything else you would like to add about reparations or the narrative tool around reparations that I have not asked?

 

Faith Campbell

The frustration that I have within the work and the movement and that is we’re still talking about the same thing, when really I’m more amped up and excited about building out the infrastructure in the spaces that you just alluded to. Once reparations happens, do we have the infrastructure? Do we have the ecosystem? Thinking [about] COVID and all of these checks and all this funding that was handed out, but it all just went right back [to the government].

 

So, how do we have financial literacy that becomes a part of our culture– which is catching on but hasn’t really taken a hold of what we talk about in our everyday household? I think just also having the elevation of Black businesses and Black spaces where you can invest and there’s transparency around what that looks like.

 

[Let’s say] we do get $100,000 or we do get a million dollars, and we want to keep it within our ecosystem and to have that replicate several times over, how do we do that? I don’t think we’ve had a lot of time to really build that out, and that takes time. So I’m definitely like yes, let’s get these things passed, but, from a standpoint of wanting to protect us, I feel like we have to begin building that infrastructure out as well.

 

Dr. Janay Cody 

Change takes a lot of time. . . . I think that in the midst of our doing narrative change, we’re also learning how to be free, so it’s going to take us longer.  So I think that we also need to give ourselves, in this moment, some grace and celebrate how much progress we have made. The fact that we are making inroads and people are beginning to understand that it’s not just about slavery, and it’s not just about money. Although those things are definitely central, I do want to close with the part that we are doing the work and give ourselves a little bit of leeway in understanding that we, literally, are learning how to be free in the course of trying to get repair for all of the time that we were not allowed to be.